Thrown Weapons

[Faruq Al-Farhan]

Right. That might be a point to keep in mind then, as they can be 4k2 weapons.

Although it would mean throwing a 5 copper weapon that you can't wield in melee...

[Raya]

I think it comes down to giving diplomats, sahirr, and other generally non-combatant people an option (more like a comforting blanket) that they TOO, can do something in combat.

While I understand this as a concept, on the other side there isn't a general 'good combat skill' that allows combat based people to also have an option in non-combat situations like court, mercantile etc. It's all about picking skillsets - if you also want to be good in combat, pick up knives. Everyone is allowed a knife after all

[Faruq Al-Farhan]

I was talking to Nicha about a similar thing another day. Not quite the same issue, but I think it comes into play here.

It's generally much easier for a Bushi to pick up Courtier and Etiquette and be decent out of combat than for a Courtier to be decent in combat. For a number of reasons - traits/rings needed, weapon skills, etc, plus Bushi techniques are generally more important for combat than Courtier techniques out of combat (Well, OK, some Bushi schools such bad. But especially after R3 that really becomes an issue).

So... while I understand why you say that, Raya, I don't think giving non-bushi "some" utility in combat is quite the same as removing bushi's Mastery of combat!

[Raya]

I was talking to Nicha about a similar thing another day. Not quite the same issue, but I think it comes into play here.

It's generally much easier for a Bushi to pick up Courtier and Etiquette and be decent out of combat than for a Courtier to be decent in combat. For a number of reasons - traits/rings needed, weapon skills, etc, plus Bushi techniques are generally more important for combat than Courtier techniques out of combat (Well, OK, some Bushi schools such bad. But especially after R3 that really becomes an issue).

So... while I understand why you say that, Raya, I don't think giving non-bushi "some" utility in combat is quite the same as removing bushi's Mastery of combat!

This isn't accurate though. Awareness has no use whatsoever in combat, so you have to buy up another trait there. Intelligence has little use in combat, so again another trait to have to buy. Courtier and etiquette don't have much use in combat, so you're spending xp away from combat to be useful outside of combat. Bushi also need to invest in more traits in general (reflexes, agility, earth ring, strength for damage) than non-combatants (awareness, willpower, perception, intelligence).

I would also heavily argue that courtier techniques are as if not more important (Bayushi courtier, Doji Courtier, Yasuji courtier, Kakita Artisans etc) than some bushi skills in combat, because it's what makes them the superior non-combatant.

[Faruq Al-Farhan]

This goes off-topic a bit so I suggest taking it up elsewhere later (Discord?), but exactly because being combat-effecrive already needs so many things I believe giving courtiers "something" to do isn't too much.

They still won't be particularly good by being able to throw things. They'll need Agility (which doesn't have that many uses outside combat) to even throw things properly, but more importantly, they'll still need Ref and Earth to be decent. And they'll be causing poor damage.

For Bushi, you're right that they'd have to buy up a skill that's not useful in combat, possibly two. And they'd need Awareness and/or Intelligence. Generally only Awareness would be enough to be passable in most courtly things though... and someone rolling 6k3 for Courtier is a very passable Courtier, whereas someone Earth 2 Ref 2 throwing stones or knives at 5k2 (with Agi 2) or 6k3 (with Agi 3) and causing 3k1 or 2k2 damage is like... not useless, but definitely not a decent combatant

Edit: and as I said, when R3 comes around it's not even a competition. SAA completely changes the ballgame

[Raya]

I agree that it's kinda going off on a different topic now, although I also feel that this isn't a fair comparison either as just having 3 awareness and 3 courtier (taking 18 xp away from combat skills) doesn't make you any better in court than having 3 agility (useful for perform skills out of combat) and 3 athletics (useful for many other things not just throwing). For that reason I don't really see 'noncombat people need an easy combat skill' as a good reason to make it slightly worse for knife based combat users. Knifes are bad enough without splitting across two skills when as Qasim said just knowing how to throw a stone doesn't mean you know how to throw a knife.

[Faruq Al-Farhan]

I agree that it's kinda going off on a different topic now, although I also feel that this isn't a fair comparison either as just having 3 awareness and 3 courtier (taking 18 xp away from combat skills) doesn't make you any better in court than having 3 agility (useful for perform skills out of combat) and 3 athletics (useful for many other things not just throwing). For that reason I don't really see 'noncombat people need an easy combat skill' as a good reason to make it slightly worse for knife based combat users. Knifes are bad enough without splitting across two skills when as Qasim said just knowing how to throw a stone doesn't mean you know how to throw a knife.

To keep it short here (and I've nudged you on Discord if you want to continue the talk there! ):

1) I agree that splitting knives into 2 different skills ain't great. Which is why I suggested making it possible to thrown them using both skills! That way knife specialists can throw knives, but so can others with Athletics.

2) I don't really think someone with Awa 3 Courtier 3 is as bad in court as a Courtier with Athletics 3, Agility 3? If the Courtier has Ref 2, Earth 2, Strength 2 he's like... shooting decently and hoping to get enough damage to at least contribute. Whereas Courtier/Awa is generally the most important skill in court settings! They will be missing other important skills, but by all accounts I'm convinced they would do much better than a Courtier in a fight!

[Qasim al-Basiri]

I don't see the need for courtiers to be good at combat or vice versa. 4e has always been a game that favors specialists if you build a court monster they shouldn't be able to do much in combat and that's fine, that's not their place. Like with Qasim, I built him with no combat ability but he's a court and commerce monster and since I built him no combat I stayed out of those events.

If you want a flexible character build a flexible character that can do both but if you want to be really good at one thing you have to accept you won't be good at the other.

[Raya]

To keep it short here (and I've nudged you on Discord if you want to continue the talk there! ):

1) I agree that splitting knives into 2 different skills ain't great. Which is why I suggested making it possible to thrown them using both skills! That way knife specialists can throw knives, but so can others with Athletics.

2) I don't really think someone with Awa 3 Courtier 3 is as bad in court as a Courtier with Athletics 3, Agility 3? If the Courtier has Ref 2, Earth 2, Strength 2 he's like... shooting decently and hoping to get enough damage to at least contribute. Whereas Courtier/Awa is generally the most important skill in court settings! They will be missing other important skills, but by all accounts I'm convinced they would do much better than a Courtier in a fight!

I saw the pm! Just not had a chance to reply

On the second point (as the first one I'm not sure I like personally but will accept it's a potential compromise), to be in court you generally need good etiquette and sincerity, to see through lies you need a decent investigation. Without good etiquette you're a sitting duck for courtly skills at least.

In combat you don't need earth higher than 2 if you have reflexes - and you're also not exactly taking a courtier to the frontline of a warzone either. Putting throwing stuff to a side, I've taken reflexes on a courtier character and using kyujutsu and been fine in a fight. There's argument to ask why it needs strength for the attack roll when ranged weapons usually use reflexes, and that feels more feasible than having two skills for one weapon type (knives/reflexes to throw weapon, knives/agility to close combat).

I don't see the need for courtiers to be good at combat or vice versa. 4e has always been a game that favors specialists if you build a court monster they shouldn't be able to do much in combat and that's fine, that's not their place. Like with Qasim, I built him with no combat ability but he's a court and commerce monster and since I built him no combat I stayed out of those events.

If you want a flexible character build a flexible character that can do both but if you want to be really good at one thing you have to accept you won't be good at the other.

This also

[Faruq Al-Farhan]

I'll let us continue on Discord them, other than minor points!

1) I'm pretty sure throwing knives uses Agility per RAW. I think it's in one of those damned boxes somewhere, can look for it later XD

2) I agree you're not a 'good' Courtier just with that - just more decent than a Courtier throwing knives and stones. But we might have different views there I guess! Partly because

3) And this is related to the conversations I was having previously. I think l5r per RAW stands in a weird halfway between games where your class pretty much defines you and games where you're freer to define what your character can do. And unlike some freer games, specialists are usually HUGELY better than generalists - which in a way ends up making it in a way more "class-based" even though in interviews and the sort the design philosophy seemed to ne to give players more flexibility based on skills. Some players (and some house rules) seem to want to favour specialists even more, or just be happy with specialists being much better than generalists. Which is fine - it's a choice. I tend to like the idea of reducing the gap between specialists and generalists, and between what you can do based on your class/school, at least a bit, to increase a bit that freedom based on skill choices and allow PCs to do at least 'something' outside their element. So possibly we're just coming from different design philosophies here

And that got a bit longer than I hoped. Off to Discord to keep this up later XD